On large commercial airliners with required two-person crews, how are
duties usually divided between the captain and the first officer? Are
there specific rules, or are there simply standard conventions, or
does it vary by airline/pilot, or what? Who flies the airplane at
which time, and what does the non-flying pilot do during those times?

--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

Mxsmanic wrote:
> On large commercial airliners with required two-person crews, how are
> duties usually divided between the captain and the first officer? Are
> there specific rules, or are there simply standard conventions, or
> does it vary by airline/pilot, or what? Who flies the airplane at
> which time, and what does the non-flying pilot do during those times?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crew_Resource_Management

Gig 601XL Builder writes:

> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crew_Resource_Management

That article does not answer my question.

--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

Mxsmanic wrote:
> Gig 601XL Builder writes:
>
> > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crew_Resource_Management
>
> That article does not answer my question.

He pointed you at the topic (CRM) that you should be Googling.

Each airline has its own rules, which you'd also have to Google, assume
their manuals are somewhere online. (Sometimes airline training
students post information to help other students. This is called a
gouge. Search using stuff like "airline training gouges")

Otherwise, I don't think there's a lot of crew on this group. You
might be better off asking the question of the one or two who hang out
on the sim groups.

Kev

Kev writes:

> He pointed you at the topic (CRM) that you should be Googling.

CRM does not answer my question. CRM does not address the technical
details of flying the aircraft or specific duties; it addresses the
social aspects of crew interaction, which is an entirely different
domain.

> Otherwise, I don't think there's a lot of crew on this group. You
> might be better off asking the question of the one or two who hang out
> on the sim groups.

I figured this group would have more airline pilots than the sim
group, but perhaps not.

--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

Mxsmanic wrote:
> I figured this group would have more airline pilots than the sim
> group, but perhaps not.

I don't think active flight crews have the free time to read/post. The
sim groups have a couple of retired airline Captains, as you know, who
do have more time.

Your question encompasses a lot of subtopics, and is different for each
airline, which is why you're being pointed at Googling to find and read
related websites.

The general answer is common sense. While one person flies, the other
usually takes over the non-flying duties such as navigation, radio and
checklists.

Kev

Mxsmanic wrote:
> Kev writes:
>
>
>>He pointed you at the topic (CRM) that you should be Googling.
>
>
> CRM does not answer my question. CRM does not address the technical
> details of flying the aircraft or specific duties; it addresses the
> social aspects of crew interaction, which is an entirely different
> domain.

Social aspects? You completely, as usual, misunderstand a topic.

Kev wrote:

> Mxsmanic wrote:
>
>>I figured this group would have more airline pilots than the sim
>>group, but perhaps not.
>
>
> I don't think active flight crews have the free time to read/post.

Are you kidding? A pilot for a major has nothing but free time.

Kev writes:

> I don't think active flight crews have the free time to read/post.

They don't work any more than other types of occupations do. Indeed,
flight crews have strict legal limitations on their working hours.

I'll grant that they may simply not be interested. When you do
something for a living, it can become much less interesting than it is
when you do it only as a hobby.

> The sim groups have a couple of retired airline Captains, as you know, who
> do have more time.

I suppose I can repeat my question there.

> The general answer is common sense. While one person flies, the other
> usually takes over the non-flying duties such as navigation, radio and
> checklists.

Yes, but who does what?

It's not a big deal; I was just curious, after watching a video of
cockpit operations.

--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

Mxsmanic wrote:
> Kev writes:
>
>> He pointed you at the topic (CRM) that you should be Googling.
>
> CRM does not answer my question. CRM does not address the technical
> details of flying the aircraft or specific duties; it addresses the
> social aspects of crew interaction, which is an entirely different
> domain.


CRM is exactly, 100% what you asked about. The Wiki link I gave you included
several links including a very good one from the UK CAA. By giving you a
link I also gave you the phrase that you could Google for even more
information.

Gig 601XL Builder wrote:

> Mxsmanic wrote:
> > Kev writes:
> >
> >> He pointed you at the topic (CRM) that you should be Googling.
> >
> > CRM does not answer my question. CRM does not address the technical
> > details of flying the aircraft or specific duties; it addresses the
> > social aspects of crew interaction, which is an entirely different
> > domain.
>
>
> CRM is exactly, 100% what you asked about. The Wiki link I gave you included
> several links including a very good one from the UK CAA. By giving you a
> link I also gave you the phrase that you could Google for even more
> information.

Why do you people treat this juvenile as if it's contributing anything
worthwhile.?
Especially when it ignores the offered URLs
If it wants to learn to fly real aeroplanes there are a surfeit of Aero
Clubs, Flying Schools, Gliding Clubs, Microlite Associations and other
such out there at its nearest airport who will gladly take its money
and train it in the arcane art of the real time pilot...
of course he'll have to get used to things like turbulence (you don't
get a ****load of rotor in a bedroom) and the odd moments of excitement
that flying can have .

In article >,
Mxsmanic > wrote:

> > I don't think active flight crews have the free time to read/post.
>
> They don't work any more than other types of occupations do.

You'd be surprised. A pilot is typically paid for about 18 hours during
an average week, yet often works double that.

> Indeed, flight crews have strict legal limitations on their working hours.

No, they have strict legal limits on their *flying* hours, and minimums
on their rest inbetween workdays. That's it. In the US, for example I
can work six 16-hour days in a row, have 24 hours off, and do it all
over again. Provided each 24-hour period includes less than 8 hours of
actually driving the airplane, this is perfectly legal.

Prepping the plane, waiting for fueling and deicing, ground delays,
transferring between planes, sitting on the ground for hours between
flights because of poor scheduling -- all of that is work, none of it is
paid at many airlines, and it doesn't count against the limits on flying
hours.

> I'll grant that they may simply not be interested.

We're out here, and we're interested. But frankly, you're so absurdly
combative and unreceptive to people who DO KNOW the answers to your
questions, that I don't think any of us really have any interest left in
educating someone who doesn't want to learn. I know I don't.

> When you do something for a living, it can become much
> less interesting than it is when you do it only as a hobby.

What you do for a hobby isn't remotely the same as what I do for a
living.

In article >,
Buck Murdock > wrote:

> You'd be surprised. A pilot is typically paid for about 18 hours during
> an average week, yet often works double that.

....finishing my thought: And this doesn't compensate for the
hundred-plus nights in hotels, while "normal people" are home in their
own beds. Yes, it's part of the job, but it's PART OF THE JOB, if you
see what I'm getting at. They're hardly luxury palaces, even at the
majors.

"Gig 601XL Builder" <wrDOTgiaconaATsuddenlink.net> wrote in message
...
> Mxsmanic wrote:
>> Kev writes:
>>
>>> He pointed you at the topic (CRM) that you should be Googling.
>>
>> CRM does not answer my question. CRM does not address the technical
>> details of flying the aircraft or specific duties; it addresses the
>> social aspects of crew interaction, which is an entirely different
>> domain.
>
>
> CRM is exactly, 100% what you asked about. The Wiki link I gave you
> included several links including a very good one from the UK CAA. By
> giving you a link I also gave you the phrase that you could Google for
> even more information.
>
In fact much of the Wikipedia article is taken from the CAA document and in
fact does mention the social aspects of CRM

george wrote:
>> Why do you people treat this juvenile as if it's contributing anything
> worthwhile.?

Considering your Google profile, and the places and things you post,
that's like calling the kettle black, don't you think?

I've only answered him directly myself perhaps thrice in two months.
If I think an answer might sound interesting to others, I'll post it.
If Mx himself doesn't get the concept within a few replies, then I
don't waste extra effort on it, or on making the really nasty replies
that others here constantly repeat until we're all sick of them.

I mean, really, do you think anyone sounds smarter by calling him names
over and over again, or that it'll make him go away? The effect seems
quite the opposite. If you're going to respond at all, just give him
(and thus, everyone else) your best shot. If it doesn't work, don't
waste time getting worked up over it. It's really not difficult to do
if you also have an outside life ;-)

Kev

Chris wrote:
> "Gig 601XL Builder" <wrDOTgiaconaATsuddenlink.net> wrote in message
> ...
>> Mxsmanic wrote:
>>> Kev writes:
>>>
>>>> He pointed you at the topic (CRM) that you should be Googling.
>>>
>>> CRM does not answer my question. CRM does not address the technical
>>> details of flying the aircraft or specific duties; it addresses the
>>> social aspects of crew interaction, which is an entirely different
>>> domain.
>>
>>
>> CRM is exactly, 100% what you asked about. The Wiki link I gave you
>> included several links including a very good one from the UK CAA. By
>> giving you a link I also gave you the phrase that you could Google
>> for even more information.
>>
> In fact much of the Wikipedia article is taken from the CAA document
> and in fact does mention the social aspects of CRM

I didn't say it didn't mention social aspects. The social aspects are a part
of CRM. But look what Anthony wrote, "CRM does not answer my question." CRM
is exactly what he asked about.

Kev wrote:

> george wrote:
> >> Why do you people treat this juvenile as if it's contributing anything
> > worthwhile.?
>
> Considering your Google profile, and the places and things you post,
> that's like calling the kettle black, don't you think?
>
What?
That I try to inject a little reality into the world of kooks ?
One answers silly claims under their subject line..

If he wants to learn how to fly real aeroplanes why isn't he at his
local airfield instead playing computor games and posting here ?

Gig 601XL Builder writes:

> I didn't say it didn't mention social aspects. The social aspects are a part
> of CRM. But look what Anthony wrote, "CRM does not answer my question." CRM
> is exactly what he asked about.

No, CRM does not address my question at all. Nobody has thus far.

--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

george wrote:
> If he wants to learn how to fly real aeroplanes why isn't he at his
> local airfield instead playing computor games and posting here ?

It doesn't matter to me. There are lots of people who fly sims because
they can't afford flying or are actually scared of real flight.

His responses shouldn't matter either. It's not like any one of us
invented flying and have to defend the physics personally <grin>.

As I keep saying, there are also plenty of people who get into
ridiculous discussions on military topics, yet they've never been, nor
ever will be, in uniform. Others opine on engineering topics, yet are
not engineers. And so forth. It doesn't stop them from making
remarks here that sound just as silly to those in the know.

Big whoop.

Kev

Mxsmanic wrote:
> Gig 601XL Builder writes:
>
>> I didn't say it didn't mention social aspects. The social aspects
>> are a part of CRM. But look what Anthony wrote, "CRM does not answer
>> my question." CRM is exactly what he asked about.
>
> No, CRM does not address my question at all. Nobody has thus far.

CRM does address it in the only way that can it can be answered. United
Airlines is going to have a different answer than American Airlines and they
are both going to have a different answer than Jay and his wife have figured
out for Atlas.

But I know you aren't going to like that answer so I gave you the
information you needed to go research it yourself.

"Buck Murdock" > wrote in message
...
> In article >,
> Buck Murdock > wrote:
>
>> You'd be surprised. A pilot is typically paid for about 18 hours during
>> an average week, yet often works double that.
>
> ...finishing my thought: And this doesn't compensate for the
> hundred-plus nights in hotels, while "normal people" are home in their
> own beds. Yes, it's part of the job, but it's PART OF THE JOB, if you
> see what I'm getting at. They're hardly luxury palaces, even at the
> majors.

Its interesting. The major low cost carriers in Europe have developed
business models where they have a number of bases with the aim that crews
get to their own homes after each duty session. As well as cutting out the
costs of paying for accommodation, crews are in better shape from having a
stable home life.

"Kev" > wrote in message
oups.com...
>
> george wrote:
>> If he wants to learn how to fly real aeroplanes why isn't he at his
>> local airfield instead playing computor games and posting here ?
>
> It doesn't matter to me. There are lots of people who fly sims because
> they can't afford flying or are actually scared of real flight.
>
> His responses shouldn't matter either. It's not like any one of us
> invented flying and have to defend the physics personally <grin>.

I know the physics, I understand the physics but I still think that getting
250 tonnes up in the air is magic. I also want to believe in Father
Christmas too :)

Gig 601XL Builder writes:

> CRM does address it in the only way that can it can be answered.

CRM addresses the social aspects of crew interaction; it does not
address the technical aspects. It is intended to reduce the number of
errors that are made because of conflicts among crew members.
However, the division of technical duties is a different issue.
Someone flies the plane. Someone adjusts the radios. Someone holds
the yoke. And so on. CRM doesn't address this, and this division of
labor predates CRM substantially. Furthermore, CRM is mostly an
American phenomenon, whereas the division of duties exists everywhere
where the aircraft are flown.

--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

In article >,
Mxsmanic > wrote:

> > CRM does address it in the only way that can it can be answered.
>
> CRM addresses the social aspects of crew interaction; it does not
> address the technical aspects.

Wrong.

> It is intended to reduce the number of
> errors that are made because of conflicts among crew members.

Again, wrong.

> However, the division of technical duties is a different issue.

No, it isn't.

> Furthermore, CRM is mostly an American phenomenon

Not so much "American" as "Western." And the safety record that goes
along with it speaks for itself.

> whereas the division of duties exists everywhere
> where the aircraft are flown.

No, it really doesn't. Every company does it differently; even those
operators who seem to crash a 737 in Africa damn near every month.

Mxsmanic wrote:
> Gig 601XL Builder writes:
>
> > I didn't say it didn't mention social aspects. The social aspects are a part
> > of CRM. But look what Anthony wrote, "CRM does not answer my question." CRM
> > is exactly what he asked about.
>
> No, CRM does not address my question at all. Nobody has thus far.

Read further. CRM is what you are asking about. Even on instructional
flights we are required to use CRM, because the examiner is required to
test the applicant on it. The possitive exchange of flight controls in
spelled out specifically in the PTS.

-Robert

Chris wrote:

> "Kev" > wrote in message
> oups.com...
> >
> > george wrote:
> >> If he wants to learn how to fly real aeroplanes why isn't he at his
> >> local airfield instead playing computor games and posting here ?
> >
> > It doesn't matter to me. There are lots of people who fly sims because
> > they can't afford flying or are actually scared of real flight.
> >
> > His responses shouldn't matter either. It's not like any one of us
> > invented flying and have to defend the physics personally <grin>.
>
> I know the physics, I understand the physics but I still think that getting
> 250 tonnes up in the air is magic. I also want to believe in Father
> Christmas too :)

Think lift pixies. I don't know who first mentioned them here some
years ago but I go for the lift pixies :-)

What you're looking for is called Multi-Crew Co-Operation, MCC in short.
This goes for everyone else who has so far responded in this thread. MCC and
CRM are not the same.

There are books on MCC and I won't write a new one here. You might want to
start your own research here:

http://www.massey.ac.nz/~bffrey/190313/modules/module3%20(Multi-crew%20operations).pdf

BTW, CRM is not an American nor a Western phenomenon. It is a phenomenon
common to all half-decent airlines with a half-decent training department.

HTH

--
Michael Nouak
remove "nospamfor" to reply:


"Mxsmanic" > schrieb im Newsbeitrag
...
> On large commercial airliners with required two-person crews, how are
> duties usually divided between the captain and the first officer? Are
> there specific rules, or are there simply standard conventions, or
> does it vary by airline/pilot, or what? Who flies the airplane at
> which time, and what does the non-flying pilot do during those times?
>
> --
> Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.
>

Mxsmanic wrote:
> On large commercial airliners with required two-person crews, how are
> duties usually divided between the captain and the first officer? Are
> there specific rules, or are there simply standard conventions, or
> does it vary by airline/pilot, or what? Who flies the airplane at
> which time,

As directed by the Captain. "Typically" one flies the plane and works
the throttle, the other watches the instruments and calls out the V
speeds for rotate, gear, flaps, etc. and clears the operation of same
with the Captain, if they are not the Captain. The Captain may allow
the FO to act as PIC, but is ultimately responsible for all aspects of
operation.

Part of the job of being a Captain is to groom FOs for Captain, so
there is no "standard" by which all airlines or crews operate, except
according to the manufacturer's POH.

> and what does the non-flying pilot do during those times?

Makes airplane noises.
-----

- gpsman

>"Chris" wrote in message
> Its interesting. The major low cost carriers in Europe have developed
> business models where they have a number of bases with the aim that crews
> get to their own homes after each duty session. As well as cutting out the
> costs of paying for accommodation, crews are in better shape from having a
> stable home life.

How many of those pilots actually live in those bases? Just like in the US,
many pilots commute to their assigned base. The end result is that they are
in a crashpad talking to their families on the phone during trip sequences.
The crews don't neccessarily have a more stable home life. Think about this-
How stable is family life when the pilot has to move his family every time
his base is reassigned? When will European airlines extend the professional
courtesy of allowing off-line pilots to jumpseat? That would be about the
pilots instead of the bottom line.

D.

>"Newps" wrote in message > Are you kidding? A pilot for a major has
nothing but free time.

Ask an airline pilot's young kids how much they miss Daddy.

Air traffic controllers, OTOH, have nothing but free time.

D.

"Mxsmanic" > wrote in message
...
> On large commercial airliners with required two-person crews, how are
> duties usually divided between the captain and the first officer? Are
> there specific rules, or are there simply standard conventions, or
> does it vary by airline/pilot, or what? Who flies the airplane at
> which time, and what does the non-flying pilot do during those times?
>
> --

Here is a good video on crew duties in a three man cockpit.

http://alexisparkinn.com/photogallery/Videos/2006-2-25_TheHighTheMighty.wmv

Danny Deger

> Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

"Danny Deger" > wrote:
> "Mxsmanic" > wrote in message
> ...
>> On large commercial airliners with required two-person crews, how are
>> duties usually divided between the captain and the first officer?
>> Are there specific rules, or are there simply standard conventions,
>> or does it vary by airline/pilot, or what? Who flies the airplane at
>> which time, and what does the non-flying pilot do during those times?
>>
>> --
>
> Here is a good video on crew duties in a three man cockpit.
>
> http://alexisparkinn.com/photogallery/Videos/2006-2-25_TheHighTheMighty.wmv

*Slap* Get a hold of yourself! Learn some real cockpit management from
these two crews:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0ienyuFvIrU

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hh_shsRfXqk

It would be better if someone answers the question rather than telling the
guy to go find the answer somewhere else. I'm sure there must be some
airline pilots here. I am curious as well. (for example, when does the
co-pilot practice the first 747 landing?)

"Fpbear II" > wrote in message
t...

> It would be better if someone answers the question rather than telling the
> guy to go find the answer somewhere else. I'm sure there must be some
> airline pilots here. I am curious as well. (for example, when does the
> co-pilot practice the first 747 landing?)

If ANYONE besides him had asked, they would have. He has alienated about
everyone. Did you notice how he argued with someone who did answer, that
was a pilot in the heavy metal?

That should be your answer.

His welcome is worn out. He has a better chance of getting an answer from a
dogcatcher.
--
Jim in NC

Morgans writes:

> If ANYONE besides him had asked, they would have.

I don't think anyone here has an answer, but I figured it wouldn't
hurt to try. I'm still waiting.

--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

In article >,
Mxsmanic > wrote:

> I don't think anyone here has an answer, but I figured it wouldn't
> hurt to try. I'm still waiting.

Sure we do. There are lots of heavy-metal pilots here with the answer,
but none of us that are willing to give it to you.

Why?

Because you'll *argue* with the answer, no matter how correct it is.
Sorry, but you've worn our your welcome here. Go to airliners.net;
you'd fit right in there.

Mxsmanic wrote:
> Morgans writes:
>
> > If ANYONE besides him had asked, they would have.
>
> I don't think anyone here has an answer, but I figured it wouldn't
> hurt to try. I'm still waiting.

What fault did you find with mine...?
-----

- gpsman

"gpsman" > wrote

> What fault did you find with mine...?

You gave one?

With him, damned if you do, damn if you don't.

I guess I would rather don't.

You might want to consider the same. He will not believe what you say, so
why bother?

And he wonders why he will not get answers.

Get on with it MX. Go bother someone else. Nobody is going to play your
game, now.
--
Jim in NC

("Buck Murdock" wrote)
> Sure we do. There are lots of heavy-metal pilots here with the answer,
> but none of us that are willing to give it to you.
>
> Why?
>
> Because you'll *argue* with the answer, no matter how correct it is.
> Sorry, but you've worn our your welcome here. Go to airliners.net; you'd
> fit right in there.


http://orangecow.org/pythonet/sketches/argument.htm
Monty Python's.... "Argument Clinic"

This very sketch was just on our local PBS station this past weekend.

I laughed (again).


"It's.... MontyBlack"

In article >,
"Montblack" > wrote:

> http://orangecow.org/pythonet/sketches/argument.htm
> Monty Python's.... "Argument Clinic"
>
> This very sketch was just on our local PBS station this past weekend.
>
> I laughed (again).

HA! I love that skit. For anyone else who wants to relive it, here's a
video clip of it:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yTl9zYS3_dc

"Capt.Doug" > wrote in message
...
> >"Chris" wrote in message
>> Its interesting. The major low cost carriers in Europe have developed
>> business models where they have a number of bases with the aim that crews
>> get to their own homes after each duty session. As well as cutting out
>> the
>> costs of paying for accommodation, crews are in better shape from having
>> a
>> stable home life.
>
> How many of those pilots actually live in those bases? Just like in the
> US,
> many pilots commute to their assigned base.

Most live at those bases. For example, Ryanair main base at London Stansted
has a base in Poland and guess what, they have Polish pilots. Moving people
around Europe is not the same as moving people around the US.
It is a model which suits all, crew and company.

gpsman writes:

> What fault did you find with mine...?

I don't see any replies from you.

--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

> CRM addresses the social aspects of crew interaction; it does not
> address the technical aspects.

I am not an airline pilot, and I don't know the "technical aspects". I
also have not taken a formal CRM course (although I am familiar with CRM
from FAA safety seminars). So, take my words with as much sodium
chloride as you deem appropriate.

I suspect that the answer to your question as to who does what is to
some extent dependent on each individual crew combination. And if an
airliner is on autopilot most of the time, nobody is "holding the yoke".
I understand that the captain, the PIC, the one in charge, can allow
(say) the first officer to hand-fly an approach, or do it himself.

CRM came about because in the past, sometimes the PIC was "too much" in
command, intimidating the rest of the flight crew in such a manner that
they would fear to question inappropriate decisions made by the captain.
CRM is an official recognition, and enforcement (of sorts), of the
idea that two heads are better than one, especially when one is swelled
up. It fostered co-operation rather than subjugation. It deals with
authority (among other things), and requires crew members to give
appropriate input, and to listen to and consider that input.

CRM is an important consideration in =deciding= who does what, and when
(and whether) somebody else ought to. But as you say, it does not by
itself assign cockpit duties.

Sometimes I fly (real spam cans) with another pilot. In that case, I
have on occasion delegated radio work to that other pilot, but I find
that I prefer to handle it all myself, for a number of reasons. First,
I don't fly all that much, so it keeps me sharp to do all the tasks
myself, since I sometimes fly by myself. Second, I don't fly with a
crew all that much, so I find that if the other pilot is doing
something, I may not be aware of it to the same degree as if I did it
myself. And third, most of my flying is "easy" flying - small aircraft
requring only one pilot in fairly benign conditions. Larger aircraft
require two pilots becuase there is more to do.

Alas, I don't really know what it all is.

Jose

>"Chris" wrote in message
> Most live at those bases. For example, Ryanair main base at London
Stansted
> has a base in Poland and guess what, they have Polish pilots. Moving
people
> around Europe is not the same as moving people around the US.
> It is a model which suits all, crew and company.

Ryanair had pilots in the US also. They spent 6 months in the US and 6
months in Ireland and Britian during tourist season.

D.

Jose writes:

> I suspect that the answer to your question as to who does what is to
> some extent dependent on each individual crew combination.

No doubt. I simply wanted to get an idea of what current practices
are.

> CRM came about because in the past, sometimes the PIC was "too much" in
> command, intimidating the rest of the flight crew in such a manner that
> they would fear to question inappropriate decisions made by the captain.

That is still true in many parts of the world; CRM has proven to be at
least partially impossible to apply in some regions, where culture
overrides safety (the Far East comes to mind).

--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

Jose,

> I understand that the captain, the PIC, the one in charge, can allow
> (say) the first officer to hand-fly an approach, or do it himself.
>

Actually, for most airlines I know about, the concept of Captain/PIC
and Copilot during flight dissolves into Pilot Flying (PF) and Pilot
Not Flying (PNF). The roles may switch during one flight. Duties are
clearly divided between the two as set forth in the ops manual. And how
they are divided is influenced largely by the concepts of CRM - the
disbelief of the village idiot not withstanding.

--
Thomas Borchert (EDDH)

"Jim Logajan" > wrote in message
.. .
snip

>> Here is a good video on crew duties in a three man cockpit.
>>
>> http://alexisparkinn.com/photogallery/Videos/2006-2-25_TheHighTheMighty.wmv
>
> *Slap* Get a hold of yourself! Learn some real cockpit management from
> these two crews:
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0ienyuFvIrU
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hh_shsRfXqk

Roger, Roger :-)

Danny Deger

Mxsmanic wrote

> Jose writes:>
>> I suspect that the answer to your question as to who does what is to
>> some extent dependent on each individual crew combination.
>
> No doubt. I simply wanted to get an idea of what current practices
> are.

I am including two pages from my PanAm B-727 Aircraft Operating Manual
in order to provide one example of how an airline might provide
direction to it's flightcrews for the operation of it's aircraft. This
brief example covers only the takeoff, but all operations are covered in
equal detail.

Very little is left to the discreation of the crewmembers. It is this
regimentation that makes it possible for several hundred different
combinations of flight crewmembers to work together safely as a crew.

No longer do copilots have to remember the ideosyncrasies of each PIC
with whom they fly.


Bob Moore
PanAm (retired)

ATP B-727 B-707 L-188
17 years as B-707 Pilot, 5 years as Instructor/Check Airman, 3 years as
Chief Pilot/Director of Flight Operations (Air Florida, Arrow Air)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Pan Am 727 Aircralt Operating Manual

OPERATING INFORMATION 176.120p 1

May 13, 1988 Normal Operation Takeoff

To achieve required airplane performance during takeoff, the
following procedures must be closely adhered to. They have been
established as the most desirable for reasons of safety and minimum
practical takeoff distance. When adhered to, other factors being equal,
they produce the results indicated in the performance charts.

For the takeoff thrust rating and flap setting to be used for takeoff,
see the Performance chapter.

CREW MANAGEMENT

The takeoff, being one of the most critical flight phases, demands
everyone's full potential as a member of the flightcrew.
Administrative and non' essential duties must be completed or held
until later so that attention is not diverted.

The captain is responsible for ensuring that a common plan of action is
shared and executed by all crewmembers.

Use of the shoulder harness for takeoff and landing is required by
FAR.

Ail crewmembers should immediately bring problems of operational
significance to the attention of the rest of the crew. Don't be too
hasty to react. immediate, unilateral action is seldom required.

The pilot making the takeoff should verify the speeds as they are
called out. The callouts are crosschecks, not commands.

The landing gear and flaps are normally operated by the pilot not
flying when called for by the pilot flying. However if the pilot in the
right seat is flying, the captain may have him operate the gear or
flaps himself by repeating the call. This call and its acknowledgement
ensure that both pilots are aware of the airplane's configuration at
all times.

The pilot not making the takeoff will make the standard callouts. See
the Standard Callouts Summary in this chapter. The engineer's primary
interests during takeoff are the performance of the engines and related
systems. His attention should be on the forward instrument panel.
Other systems monitoring is secondary. The engineer should crosscheck
the flight instruments and callout any deviation from the planned
flightpath climbangle, or airspeed.

NOTE The entire crew will monitor ATC and cross-check instruments to
ensure compliance with clearance and company procedures.

PRETAKEOFF ANNOUNCEMENT

A flight crewmember will make a brief announcement to the passengerts
that departure is imminent. This will serve as a warning to the
flight attendants. No additional specific warning is needed. lf any
delay at the gate or taxiing warrants a cabin announcement, th en the
expected takeoff time should be mentioned. Otherwise, flight attendants
w ill conclude that takeoff is imminent.

TAKEOFF CONSIDERATIONS

Before every takeoff, mentally review the engine failure and rejected
takeoffp rocedures. Consider the factors relevant to the takeoff, as
noted in the following paragraphs. The ONH. TOGW limits in the Route
and Airport Manual are based on field elevaticn, but airplane
performance is based on pressure altitude. No corrections are made
until QNH falls below 29.81 ( 1009.6m b). Above 29.81, the higher the
QNH, the better the airplane's performance. . The temperature lapse
rate. Low-altitude inversions can result in significant loss of thrust
if the throttles are not advanced with the rising temperature as the
airplane climbs. . The wind that may be encountered on the runway
during takeoff. V1 may not be vaiid for windshear conditions since
groundspeed can be much higher than airspeed. lt therefore may not be
possible to stop the airplane on the runway in case of a rejected
takeoff. The ability to lift off is a function of airspeed, th e
ability to stop is a function of ground speed. The wind that may be
encountered alter liftoff. Horizontal wind gradients and vertical wind
components are not figured in TOGW calculations, but they can have a
significant effect on performance over the ground.

WARNING

lf significant windshear is suspected, consider the alternatives of
taking off in a different direction or delaying the takeoff until
conditions are more favorable. The thrust. TOGW limits are based on full
takeoff thrust. Set exact EPR.

Pan Am 727 Aircraft Operating Manual

176.12 p02 OPERATING INFORMATION

Normal Operation Takeoff Oct 26,1 990

COMPASS CHECK

To help prevent an inadvertant takeoff on the wrong runway, after
taxiing onto the runway, all crew-members should routinely check
airplane compass heading against the desired runway heading.

TAKEOFF AND DEPARTURE BRIEFING

Verify that a common plan of action is shared by the crew.This
briefing, in minimum but adequate detail, will probably be given in
segments as events occur; but at this time, particularly if there have
been lengthy taxi delays, any missing elements should be completed. The
use of standard takeoff procedures will be assumed. The briefing should
include: . A review of the departure procedure and clearance.. The
radio management procedures desired. . The takeoff and departure climb
procedure to be used... Additional items as necessary ( for example,
a T- page engine failure procedure).

STANDARD TAKEOFF PROCEDURES

Standard take-off procedures include the following: The pilot not
making the takeoff will call out "Airspeed, 80 knots, Vr, V2, positive
climb, 800 feet" ( or appropriate obstruction clearance) altitude).lf
V1 and Vr are different," V1" must be called out also. . The engineer
will automatically switch to an operating generator if essential power
is lost. . The pilot making the takeoff will advance the throttles to
approximately the vertical position and check for balanced EPR. He
will then advance the throttles to near takeoff thrust. The engineer
will trim the engines to takeoff thrust and monitor the power
throughout the takeoff regime. The pilot in the left seat ( normally
the pilot in command) will position his hand on the throttles until V1.
.. The pilot in the left seat will make any decision to discontinue the
takeoff and will execute the Re-jected Takeoff procedures as described
in Abnormal Operation, Chapter 5. . The pilot in the left seat will
remove his hand from the throttles at V1.

CHECKLIST

The Takeoff checklist is a final safety check. The engineer will
announce " Configuration Check" and will challenge all the items that
follow. All three crewmembers will visually check the challenged
items. The captain will respond to all challenged items.

Initiate the Takeoff checklist soon enough to avoid causing a delay
after being cleared for takeoff. The Takeoff checklist can be
completed before actually taxiing on to the runway. Complete the
checklist before applying takeoff thrust.

AIRPLANE CONTROL , TAKEOFF POSITIONING

Normally all takeoffs are made on the centerline of the runway with a
rolling start. Takeoff performance is not affected with this technique
and engine surges from crosswinds or tailwinds are minimized. Engine
No.2 is especially susceptible to crosswind- caused compressor stalls
and should be accelerated slowly under these conditions, but with
takeoff thrust set before 60 kt.

The point at which thrust may be increased varies with the runway and
taxiway layout. Avoid making sharp turns onto the runway at high speed.

APPLYING TAKEOFF THRUST

During the latter part of the turn to runway alignment, begin applying
thrust for the takeoff. - Advance the throttles smoothly to
approximately the vertical position. This will oroduce about 1.40
EPR. - Allow engines to stabilize, then check for balanced EPR. - lf
using brakes, ease them off. - Smoothly advance the throttles to near
takeoff thrust EPR and call for takeoff thrust. - The flight engineer
will trim the engines to take-off EPR and ensure that correct thrust
is set by 60 kt. Once the required thrust is confirmed, the flight
engineer should remove his hands from the throttles except for
adjustments to avoid exceeding EGT, N1, or N2 limits. This is to
prevent possible injury during a rejected takeoff and also to avoid an
accidental closing of the throttles if the flight engineer's seat
unlocks and slides aft.

Static starts( applying takeoff thrust before releasing the brakes) may
be made as required ( for example, to check a suspected faulty engine
instrument before starting the takeoff roll). All other takeoff
procedures remain the same. Once takeoff thrust is set, regardless of
which pilot is making the takeoff, the pilot in the left seat is to
keep his hand on the throttles until V1.

WARNING

lf the takeoff warning horn sounds early in the takeoff roll, the cause
may be difficult to determine. Do not attempt to assess the problem.
Retard the throttles and reject the takeoff.

> I am including two pages from my PanAm B-727 Aircraft Operating Manual

Fascinating material there... thanks.

Jose
--
He who laughs, lasts.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

Bob Moore wrote:
>
> I am including two pages from my PanAm B-727 Aircraft Operating Manual
> in order to provide one example of how an airline might provide
> direction to it's flightcrews for the operation of it's aircraft.


Thanks for taking the time to post this!

Bob Moore writes:

> I am including two pages from my PanAm B-727 Aircraft Operating Manual
> in order to provide one example of how an airline might provide
> direction to it's flightcrews for the operation of it's aircraft. This
> brief example covers only the takeoff, but all operations are covered in
> equal detail.

Pretty cool! Thanks!

Which reminds me ... in videos of take-offs I sometimes see the
non-flying pilot place his hand just behind the throttles after the
flying pilot advances them fully forward for take-off. Any idea what
this is supposed to accomplish?

--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

B A R R Y wrote

> Bob Moore wrote:
>>
>> I am including two pages from my PanAm B-727 Aircraft Operating Manual
>> in order to provide one example of how an airline might provide
>> direction to it's flightcrews for the operation of it's aircraft.
>
>
> Thanks for taking the time to post this!
>

You may have noticed that even back in the '80s, it was part of our
standard procedure to check the runway aligment with the compass
prior to takeoff.

Bob

Mxsmanic wrote
> Which reminds me ... in videos of take-offs I sometimes see the
> non-flying pilot place his hand just behind the throttles after the
> flying pilot advances them fully forward for take-off. Any idea what
> this is supposed to accomplish?

One wants the pilot's hands off the throttles after passing the V1
speed to prevent an accidental reactive attempt to abort with not
enough distance remaining to stop, however, you don't want the
throttles creeping or vibrating back from TO Thrust, so either the
FE or Pilot-not-Flying will provide a backup stop to prevent this
from occuring.

Bob Moore

Bob Moore writes:

> One wants the pilot's hands off the throttles after passing the V1
> speed to prevent an accidental reactive attempt to abort with not
> enough distance remaining to stop, however, you don't want the
> throttles creeping or vibrating back from TO Thrust, so either the
> FE or Pilot-not-Flying will provide a backup stop to prevent this
> from occuring.

But in this case the pilot flying had his hand on the throttles, and
the pilot not flying had his hand behind them. If the former were to
pull the throttles back, the latter would have his hand chewed up
pretty badly, and yet he wouldn't be able to stop the throttle
movement because the position of his hand wouldn't provide the
leverage.

Anyway, I was just curious.

--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

Generally speaking, the term is "I'll fly - you fix" (or you fly -
I'll fix). The Captain and First Officer generally alternate flying
duties on each leg of the flight. One flys the airplane the other
handles communications, gear, flaps, reads checklists, investigates
burned out bulbs, etc. The key to CRM (Cocpit Resource Management) is
that someone is always paying attention to flying the airplane and not
distracted by fire lights, terrorists, etc.
Steve



On Wed, 10 Jan 2007 17:37:29 +0100, Mxsmanic >
wrote:

>On large commercial airliners with required two-person crews, how are
>duties usually divided between the captain and the first officer? Are
>there specific rules, or are there simply standard conventions, or
>does it vary by airline/pilot, or what? Who flies the airplane at
>which time, and what does the non-flying pilot do during those times?